14.4. 12
This afternoon, our first meeting since the Reading Day dinner, we missed Julie and Mike but were joined again by Pat, even though she had to leave early. Ian revealed the Hobbit T-shirts he had acquired in support of the embattled pub, and Anne reported that she had passed on to a contact the news of the Tolkien piano for sale. We all consoled Pat over her ongoing computer problems, and having dispensed with AOB, we turned to our topic for the afternoon – Creature-slayers.
This proved to have been a tricky topic as we had all been slightly unsure of where to start. The Niebelungenlied and the Volsunga saga had been a first stop for some of us, while Laura had delved into Navaho myth (more shortly).
I started the ball rolling with an observation that many societies have myths in which heroes kill either dragons or giants, and while I could come up with plenty of dragons in Tolkien’s works, I couldn’t think of any giants that were slain. Large beings such as Trolls and Ents didn’t seem the same thing at all.
Pat, Ian, and Laura all observed that in Farmer Giles of Ham a giant is the first problem Giles has to sort out after it invades his land and tramples poor Galatea the cow.
We went on to dragon-slaying when I observed that dragons in and out of Tolkien’s work are usually associated with greed, and in a couple of medieval instances greed and violence actually turn men into dragons. The most famous of these is the transformation of the fratricidal Fafnir in the Niebelungenlied and Wagner’s Ring cycle, and the transformation of tyrannical warlord brothers in Bevis of Hampton. Angela and Ian developed the idea that the dwarf-rings in Tolkien’s works are the foundation of the dwarves’ wealth and somewhere in any dragon horde there will be a dwarf-ring.
This led Laura and Angela to recall C.S. Lewis’s Voyage of the Dawn Treader in which the greedy child Eustace helps himself to an Anglo-Saxon arm ring which turns him into a dragon.
Angela recalled the connection between dragon’s and a foul stench – something emphasised in The Silmarillion when Turin is almost overwhelmed by Glaurung’s stench as he tries to kill the beast. One of the dragon-tyrants in Bevis similarly gives rise to a foul smell as it lurks under one of the bridges across the Tiber.
Chris then posed the question of whether any other hero bathes in dragon’s blood as it gives protection from weapons. Siegfried does this in the Niebelungenlied but a vulnerable spot is left when a leaf lands on his back.
Laura remarked that in the Volsunga saga the Sigurd is warned by an Old Man (Odin) to avoid being touched by the dragon’s blood because it will burn him. This burning blood of a dragon is a motif repeated in the way Glaurung’s blood burns Turin.
Laura also noted that Glaurung speaks as Fafnir speaks. Angela remarked, however, that Glaurung speaks with Morgoth’s voice, not his own, and only to taunt Turin.
Ian remembered Tolkien’s other giants – the Stone-giants in The Hobbit, but commented that there is little interaction with them, although Gandalf wonders if there might be a friendly one, and their presence may be implicitly recalled when the fellowship are on Caradhras and beset by the storm.
We shifted into classical mythology as Laura recalled the killing of Medusa, who, like some of the dragons, had changed from human to monster. We also noted that the hero Bellerophon kills the Chimera, and we realised that there are many instances where heroes have helpers, as Bellerophon has the help of Pegasus. Chris added that Andromeda is rescued from a sea-monster by Perseus. In the case of Medusa and Andromeda, the goddess Athena helps the heroes.
Laura added Theseus and the minotaur to this group, with Ariadne as helper. Ian observed that this story was Greek political propaganda about Minoan culture.
Laura commented that the black sails of Aragorn’s corsair ships always reminds her of the story of Theseus who forgot to change his black sails, leading to the despairing suicide of his father. This was compared with the effect on Denethor of the black sailed ships of the corsairs, since he had no way of knowing that they brought help rather than destruction.
Laura went on to introduce the theme of the hero’s bargain and curse, citing the fate of the ‘hero’ in the tale of the Lampton Worm. This worthless young man throws something into a well that then grows into a ‘worm’ or dragon. While on crusade, he learns to be a better character and on return home kills the worm, but also unleashes a curse on his family when he kills the first thing he sees.
Kathleen remarked on the motif of the ‘first thing to be seen’ bargain as it is used in the story of Beauty and the Beast.
We considered the extent to which heroes have to undergo ‘rites of passage’ in order to undertake their great task
Laura and Anne both raised the dragon-slaying exploits of St. George, noting that in Tolkien’s works dragons tend to have weak spots. In The Hobbit, the Thrush tells Bard where to aim.
St George’s defeat of the dragon raised the matter of Christianity, and Kathleen recalled the giant who is on Aslan’s side in CSL’s stories.
I wondered if there was a distinction between Christian and pagan heroes along the lines that pagan heroes seem to have helpers and Christian heroes don’t. Kathleen thought that help suggested that the hero has right on his side, while no help meant he had to decide for himself. Anne saw the lack of help for Christian heroes as a sign that the real help was divine. Laura recalled that Sigurd had divine (pagan) help from Odin.
Laura wondered if all heroes have special weapons, and Anne recalled Siegfried’s sword Notung. I remarked that Beowulf attempted to us several different swords but they all failed him and he often had to use his bare hands.
I went on to ask if taboos had been noticed, such as the taboo on Cuchulainn. Chris noted that Brunhilde is under a taboo that means the loss of her virginity will cause the loss of her immortality too. Angela wondered if Helm Hammerhand’s name recalled a taboo like Beowulf’s such that he could not wield a sword, but in Helm’s case had to use a warhammer.
Meanwhile Ian had been Googling taboos and offered the suggestion that within any social structure taboos serve to maintain social norms rather than just being an attribute of the hero, although taboos may stem from this mythic origin. Taboos also isolated heroes and kings from specific kinds of danger, and in Celtic society, Druids defined the taboos.
I then asked if we saw heroes as coming from within or without a society. Anne remarked that heroes are those who go, and when they have completed a task some need to take a break. We listed a number of these – mostly American comic-book types, or those used to create American myths, such as Superman. It was also noted in that the film Shane the reluctant hero succeeded but went away to die.
Angela observed that some heroes are those who don’t want to fight, and Kathleen placed all the hobbits in this category.
Laura then asked about female heroes. She thought there was a female dragon Tiamat in a Middle Eastern myth. Tiamat in ancient Semitic religion seems to have been a sea monster, originally the sea, and a mother Goddess figure but she was also regarded as a destroyer and the god Marduk destroyed her with his arrow.
Kathleen and Anne noted a number of instances of female helpers in classical myth, and Ian referred us to the Amazon warriors who were not permitted to marry until they had killed a male enemy.
Laura noted the presence of shieldmaidens in LotR and in Germanic legend, although as Valkyries we noted that they mostly did the clearing up after battle. Angela, however, observed that Bilbo’s mother had been an adventurous young female before she married.
Laura then explained some of the Navaho myth in which there are two hero brothers, one of whom is named ‘monster-slayer’, but while they kill all the monsters they find they abstain from killing Death itself on logical grounds of overpopulation and the suffering of illness.
After an meeting that left us all feeling as though we had worked hard, we agreed to read the first 2 ‘chapters’ of The Cottage of Lost Play in The Lost Tales. In fact the second ‘chapter’ is The Music of the Ainur, but this version follows on from ‘The Cottage of Lost Play’.
This afternoon, our first meeting since the Reading Day dinner, we missed Julie and Mike but were joined again by Pat, even though she had to leave early. Ian revealed the Hobbit T-shirts he had acquired in support of the embattled pub, and Anne reported that she had passed on to a contact the news of the Tolkien piano for sale. We all consoled Pat over her ongoing computer problems, and having dispensed with AOB, we turned to our topic for the afternoon – Creature-slayers.
This proved to have been a tricky topic as we had all been slightly unsure of where to start. The Niebelungenlied and the Volsunga saga had been a first stop for some of us, while Laura had delved into Navaho myth (more shortly).
I started the ball rolling with an observation that many societies have myths in which heroes kill either dragons or giants, and while I could come up with plenty of dragons in Tolkien’s works, I couldn’t think of any giants that were slain. Large beings such as Trolls and Ents didn’t seem the same thing at all.
Pat, Ian, and Laura all observed that in Farmer Giles of Ham a giant is the first problem Giles has to sort out after it invades his land and tramples poor Galatea the cow.
We went on to dragon-slaying when I observed that dragons in and out of Tolkien’s work are usually associated with greed, and in a couple of medieval instances greed and violence actually turn men into dragons. The most famous of these is the transformation of the fratricidal Fafnir in the Niebelungenlied and Wagner’s Ring cycle, and the transformation of tyrannical warlord brothers in Bevis of Hampton. Angela and Ian developed the idea that the dwarf-rings in Tolkien’s works are the foundation of the dwarves’ wealth and somewhere in any dragon horde there will be a dwarf-ring.
This led Laura and Angela to recall C.S. Lewis’s Voyage of the Dawn Treader in which the greedy child Eustace helps himself to an Anglo-Saxon arm ring which turns him into a dragon.
Angela recalled the connection between dragon’s and a foul stench – something emphasised in The Silmarillion when Turin is almost overwhelmed by Glaurung’s stench as he tries to kill the beast. One of the dragon-tyrants in Bevis similarly gives rise to a foul smell as it lurks under one of the bridges across the Tiber.
Chris then posed the question of whether any other hero bathes in dragon’s blood as it gives protection from weapons. Siegfried does this in the Niebelungenlied but a vulnerable spot is left when a leaf lands on his back.
Laura remarked that in the Volsunga saga the Sigurd is warned by an Old Man (Odin) to avoid being touched by the dragon’s blood because it will burn him. This burning blood of a dragon is a motif repeated in the way Glaurung’s blood burns Turin.
Laura also noted that Glaurung speaks as Fafnir speaks. Angela remarked, however, that Glaurung speaks with Morgoth’s voice, not his own, and only to taunt Turin.
Ian remembered Tolkien’s other giants – the Stone-giants in The Hobbit, but commented that there is little interaction with them, although Gandalf wonders if there might be a friendly one, and their presence may be implicitly recalled when the fellowship are on Caradhras and beset by the storm.
We shifted into classical mythology as Laura recalled the killing of Medusa, who, like some of the dragons, had changed from human to monster. We also noted that the hero Bellerophon kills the Chimera, and we realised that there are many instances where heroes have helpers, as Bellerophon has the help of Pegasus. Chris added that Andromeda is rescued from a sea-monster by Perseus. In the case of Medusa and Andromeda, the goddess Athena helps the heroes.
Laura added Theseus and the minotaur to this group, with Ariadne as helper. Ian observed that this story was Greek political propaganda about Minoan culture.
Laura commented that the black sails of Aragorn’s corsair ships always reminds her of the story of Theseus who forgot to change his black sails, leading to the despairing suicide of his father. This was compared with the effect on Denethor of the black sailed ships of the corsairs, since he had no way of knowing that they brought help rather than destruction.
Laura went on to introduce the theme of the hero’s bargain and curse, citing the fate of the ‘hero’ in the tale of the Lampton Worm. This worthless young man throws something into a well that then grows into a ‘worm’ or dragon. While on crusade, he learns to be a better character and on return home kills the worm, but also unleashes a curse on his family when he kills the first thing he sees.
Kathleen remarked on the motif of the ‘first thing to be seen’ bargain as it is used in the story of Beauty and the Beast.
We considered the extent to which heroes have to undergo ‘rites of passage’ in order to undertake their great task
Laura and Anne both raised the dragon-slaying exploits of St. George, noting that in Tolkien’s works dragons tend to have weak spots. In The Hobbit, the Thrush tells Bard where to aim.
St George’s defeat of the dragon raised the matter of Christianity, and Kathleen recalled the giant who is on Aslan’s side in CSL’s stories.
I wondered if there was a distinction between Christian and pagan heroes along the lines that pagan heroes seem to have helpers and Christian heroes don’t. Kathleen thought that help suggested that the hero has right on his side, while no help meant he had to decide for himself. Anne saw the lack of help for Christian heroes as a sign that the real help was divine. Laura recalled that Sigurd had divine (pagan) help from Odin.
Laura wondered if all heroes have special weapons, and Anne recalled Siegfried’s sword Notung. I remarked that Beowulf attempted to us several different swords but they all failed him and he often had to use his bare hands.
I went on to ask if taboos had been noticed, such as the taboo on Cuchulainn. Chris noted that Brunhilde is under a taboo that means the loss of her virginity will cause the loss of her immortality too. Angela wondered if Helm Hammerhand’s name recalled a taboo like Beowulf’s such that he could not wield a sword, but in Helm’s case had to use a warhammer.
Meanwhile Ian had been Googling taboos and offered the suggestion that within any social structure taboos serve to maintain social norms rather than just being an attribute of the hero, although taboos may stem from this mythic origin. Taboos also isolated heroes and kings from specific kinds of danger, and in Celtic society, Druids defined the taboos.
I then asked if we saw heroes as coming from within or without a society. Anne remarked that heroes are those who go, and when they have completed a task some need to take a break. We listed a number of these – mostly American comic-book types, or those used to create American myths, such as Superman. It was also noted in that the film Shane the reluctant hero succeeded but went away to die.
Angela observed that some heroes are those who don’t want to fight, and Kathleen placed all the hobbits in this category.
Laura then asked about female heroes. She thought there was a female dragon Tiamat in a Middle Eastern myth. Tiamat in ancient Semitic religion seems to have been a sea monster, originally the sea, and a mother Goddess figure but she was also regarded as a destroyer and the god Marduk destroyed her with his arrow.
Kathleen and Anne noted a number of instances of female helpers in classical myth, and Ian referred us to the Amazon warriors who were not permitted to marry until they had killed a male enemy.
Laura noted the presence of shieldmaidens in LotR and in Germanic legend, although as Valkyries we noted that they mostly did the clearing up after battle. Angela, however, observed that Bilbo’s mother had been an adventurous young female before she married.
Laura then explained some of the Navaho myth in which there are two hero brothers, one of whom is named ‘monster-slayer’, but while they kill all the monsters they find they abstain from killing Death itself on logical grounds of overpopulation and the suffering of illness.
After an meeting that left us all feeling as though we had worked hard, we agreed to read the first 2 ‘chapters’ of The Cottage of Lost Play in The Lost Tales. In fact the second ‘chapter’ is The Music of the Ainur, but this version follows on from ‘The Cottage of Lost Play’.
